My parts store trip today (10W7)

Just got some accessories...

Got 8 feet of zero gauge cable to upgrade my magic 3 from 4 gauge. They even had 0 gauge ring connectors, to make it real easy. Got 6 ring connectors. I'll work on one or two today, but I'll need a battery terminal to do my last one. I like the Stinger terminals a lot.

And got another 30 feet of my 12 gauge speaker wire.. i dont like many breaks in my wire, which i have, so im running cable straight from crossovers to my bus.

And.... I saw the 10W7 JL sealed box.. man it was nice.. Dont know if anyone knows anything about JLs own sealed box performance... The guys always gimmie a break, and I paid $40 out the door for all my wiring and terminals. Cash, no tax or anything. Anyone know the price ranges for that JL 10W7 sealed setup? They claimed it was $525 or so, and he said he could do a real nice deal of $450, which he claimed was basically his cost. Seems like a good price, but then thats still a lot of money to spend. Plus... I have exactly 600Wrms to send to my sub... (since its 3 ohm, maybe 700Wrms.... Still.. would it be worth investing in a 10W7 if I'm not gonna power it to it full capability? I know they like 1000Wrms usually..

This W7:


http://www.jlaudio.com/enclosures/CLS110RGW7.html

600-700WRMS will be PERFECT for the 10W7. It is the 13W7 the needs 1000WRMS.

See here: http://www.jlaudio.com/subwoofers/RP_Chart.html

I think it is a good price w/ the box which is actually made for it, considering it is retail.

Thanks.......... i know i'm meant to have this box... and i just sold some stock and got a bonus totalling about $1800....

I'll think some more......

I think everyone here knows my opinions of the W7, so I'll keep my mouth shut

If it makes you happy then go for it

i dont rememebr your opinions.. hahaha...

wanna refresh me? you hate em???

http://74.220.202.31/~bellbott/images/magicnew1.jpg

No, he can't imagine spending the $$ they ask for them, but if you aren't worried about money they are the 'best'. Since we know you are willing to spend any $$ it takes, go ahead, you'll be very happy with the W7. :)

Whats the electrical tape for?

thats not electrical tape. Thats the ring terminal boots.

http://74.220.202.31/~bellbott/images/magicnew2.jpg

Done my 2 magic wire upgrades. Alt to batt, and engine to chassis. Now I'm gonna shop around for some battery terminals.. I think I saw that the stock battery actually doesnt have any fuses right at the stock terminal like I thought? Looks like one 8 gauge and one 4 gauge stock? then I have my addition 4 gauge. So I need a terminal with two 4 gauge and one 8 gauge connections.

I'm confused... you upgraded your grounds to 0ga, while your power is 4ga?

no... i upgraded magic 3 to 0 gauge..



my amplifier power is 4 gauge and always has been.

Doesnt seem like a bad price. 350 for the sub on ebay so 100 for the box seems resonable.

Originally posted by placenta
i dont rememebr your opinions.. hahaha...

wanna refresh me? you hate em???

There are just SO many other setups that will have better SQ and much more output for the same price as a w7. To me, you only buy a w7 for the name and the recognition from peers, nothing else.

the price is precisely the reason i might get it. thats a good price for a W7.

have you heard the focal lineup of subs? they are simply astonishing even compared to the eclipses and w3's i dunno what the 7's sound like but all focals are progresively better then the 3's

that is a good price for a W7, but I'd still get a B15, or XXX, or A, or IDMAX before it. All of them would be louder, cheaper, and the more you turn it up the more they would annihilate the 10w7 in both SQ and SPL.

not that i wouldn't rather purchase the aforementioned subs... but I believe that price not being a part of the decision, the w7 is superior to all of them.

maybe a 13w7, not a 10w7

Originally posted by 2001 SE #2
that is a good price for a W7, but I'd still get a B15, or XXX, or A, or IDMAX before it. All of them would be louder, cheaper, and the more you turn it up the more they would annihilate the 10w7 in both SQ and SPL.

Not to start anything, but have you heard them? The XXX for example.... It seems it is the new trend at CAF, after the ED craze... And it seems that it will pick up more now that the ED is dropping the flat cone design.

I mean, I hate it when people go "Oh, the XXX is amazing, blah, blah" , when maybe 2-3 people have actually owned/heard it.

I have owned the RE 8'', nothing special (except they looked cheap, really - well they are like $45 direct) when people were "The RE 8'' will slaughter many 10'' etc. etc. w/o even having heard them.

I do not think many subs can go against the W7.... well, the Focal Utopias are plain AWESOME, but we are talking $550 for the 33WX, e-bay price.

I just did some calculations, the 10w7 at full excursion has the displacement of a b15 at a little over 1/3 of its excursion. You CAN'T tell me that the w7 at full excursion will sound as good as a b15 at 1/3 excursion, and they're both the same price. I could do the same with any of the other drivers I mentioned, but the bottom line is that no matter how good it is, it's still a 10" and simply can't hang with any of the other drivers in its price range in terms of SPL. It's only plus is a slight advantage over the others I mentioned in SQ, but that's negated once you turn it up a reasonable amount.

And yes I have heard a 13w7, even without taking price into consideration I didn't like it. It has a different sound than many other woofers, and I don't like it.

Originally posted by 2001 SE #2
I just did some calculations, the 10w7 at full excursion has the displacement of a b15 at a little over 1/3 of its excursion. You CAN'T tell me that the w7 at full excursion will sound as good as a b15 at 1/3 excursion, and they're both the same price.
it's still a 10" and simply can't hang with any of the other drivers in its price range in terms of SPL.

You know whats loud and moves alot of air?

A stick of dynamite..but it sounds like crap.

Anyone have a link to this awesome B15 subwoofer? I'd like to check it out.

Originally posted by mumra
Doesnt seem like a bad price. 350 for the sub on ebay so 100 for the box seems resonable.

he'd also get a warranty with that, over the ebay w7, so i think its definitely a good deal....

and when buying audio stuff online, you pretty much HAVE to go by what people say about them, and what kind of reviews and stuff they get, or what else would we do... if it wasnt for reviews, we probably wouldnt even know that the car audio world was as big as it was, and we'd all be driving around with stock stereos... and enjoying them...

i could prob listen to that W7 box at store first.. but i heard a W7 a month ago and it was pretty nice.

http://jlaudio.com/enclosures/images/CLS110R_W7_G_FLT.jpg

here we go again...JL vs this , JL vs that. People buy what they more over then the name but I have yet to hear any sub maybe the alpine that comes close to JL's. This is my opnion just like you have yours.

But to stay on topic looks good plac..you get a new battery yet (optima?)

i got an Optima a year ago..


one reason im might buy it IS the JL name.. ya i said it.. cuz reputation does have value to me. i asked about this sub on many forums... got well over 20 replies... ONE person said a 10W7 wont be loud enough on 600watts... everyone else said it would sound killer on 600Watts.. I have heard a 10W7 w my own ears off of a bridged TRU 100x2.. (about 350Wrms?), i like the box shape, its a sub i can trust 100%.. cant really ask for much else..

the 500/1 I have seen it and heard it with and its damn near loud for me, but i do think my 2 10"w3v2's are just as loud imo. The 500/1 puts out just over 600 watts. I would throw maybe 800 watts at it but check JL to see what exactly is the lowest you can throw at it with out damaging it.

you know better than that Phat.. theres no such thing as damaging it by underpowering.

my amp puts out 600Wrms @ 4 ohm, and maybe 700Wrms @ 3 ohm..

the sub box is rated for 500Wrms.... so ill be overpowering if anything.. i wont be that mad if its no louder than my dual 10's.. cuz it will take up less space and sound at least as good..

actully u can damage a sub by underpowering it overpowering it.

ok.

For what you're looking to pay for that have you checked into DD???

When you under power speakers, the coils end up getting hotter. It's actually safer to have a higher watted amp and have the gain lower. + it reduces clipping.. I know this much from Guitar/Bass amps.... I blew out a 6x10 speaker cabinet with a 50w head unit....


I went back to the store and they asked what head unit I was using and they said that I was underpowering it, and it basically melted the from distortion. Subs especially, since they aren't engineered to take the high frequencies that distortion produces:


http://www.electrosound.com/Speaker_Facts/v6no2.htm

Originally posted by baboyd
You know whats loud and moves alot of air?

A stick of dynamite..but it sounds like crap.

Anyone have a link to this awesome B15 subwoofer? I'd like to check it out.

http://www.adireaudio.com/mobile_audio/drivers/brahma_series.htm
B15 is short for Brahma 15, it's obviously not the best sub, I was just using it as an example. Supposedly it has amazing sound quality and has the ability to get deafeningly loud, all for a price that is much more reasonable than a w7. I've never heard one in person, but then again it's nearly impossible to hear every online-based woofer in person unless you buy them all yourself.

And about underpowering, it's a touchy subject. Underpowering itself does absolutely no damage, it's the exact same as just turning down your volume. The problem is that often times, people end up cranking the gain on their amp to make the sub louder, this in turn forces the amp into clipping. When clipping, an amp can send out 2-3 times it's rated power, easily melting down a sub's voice coil. If you set the gain properly however, you will never have a problem.

Underpowering itself does absolutely no damage, it's the exact same as just turning down your volume. The problem is that often times, people end up cranking the gain on their amp to make the sub louder

Thats exactly right.

Originally posted by 2001 SE #2
Underpowering itself does absolutely no damage, it's the exact same as just turning down your volume. The problem is that often times, people end up cranking the gain on their amp to make the sub louder

Originally posted by placenta

Thats exactly right.

Ditto...

Normally when you under power a sub your sending "bad" watts to the sub which creates clipping. When you buy an amp rated at 100watts and the subs rms is 100watts it will technically be better, and not create as much clipping.

As far as i know even when you turn the volume down there is still the same volatge flowing through which means that the watt output is still there but the gain in essece turned down, as in the sub isnt as loud as it can be. But when you turn it up the max gain can be reached. Thats why tuning the gain at max volume when tuning is crutial, otherwise you would tune it at +3 volume not +30. Let me know if this holds water.

man... first baboyd compares the brahma 15 with its SQ designed XBL2 technology to dynamite (or does so not knowing what 2001SE was even talking about which is even more ignorant)

then here comes phat to tell us that underpowering speakers causes them to blow. what a load of garbage in this thread.

plac: pick up the 10w7 if you want a smaller sub and you've been happy with the two 10w3v2's. if you want more output, go with a larger speaker like the brahma... but I think for what you've been wanting which seems to be 'less' rather than 'more' when it comes to too much bass and too much room taken up, that 10w7 should be a good compliment to your system.

Originally posted by PhatVSpec
Normally when you under power a sub your sending "bad" watts to the sub which creates clipping. When you buy an amp rated at 100watts and the subs rms is 100watts it will technically be better, and not create as much clipping.

As far as i know even when you turn the volume down there is still the same volatge flowing through which means that the watt output is still there but the gain in essece turned down, as in the sub isnt as loud as it can be. But when you turn it up the max gain can be reached. Thats why tuning the gain at max volume when tuning is crutial, otherwise you would tune it at +3 volume not +30. Let me know if this holds water.

Just don't post anymore, please. Go to Totoro's gain setting site and read up.

First off, sending less power to a sub has NOTHING to do with clipping. Clipping is from improperly setting the gain. How can 60W suddenly be "bad" watts because you are sending them to components that NOMINALLY will take 90W. So the 60W are good watts if you send them to 60W components, even though nothing else changed?


Secondly, you NEVER set the gain on max volume because that is when the HU is sending out the worst signal. You want to set the gain more along 75% of the HU's full volume to give yourself the best signal / power compromise.

As far as i know even when you turn the volume down there is still the same volatge flowing through which means that the watt output is still there but the gain in essece turned down, as in the sub isnt as loud as it can be.

"As far as he knows"

Which tells enough. The volume control is your signal voltage knob. The amps voltage is indeed always the same at ~12 volts. The amperage is what changes when you raise the volume, and more mperage is what makes your sub louder.

Jeez I'm hope I'm right or I'll look as silly as him...

Originally posted by PhatVSpec
Let me know if this holds water.

Nope. Sorry, bro...it's sinking.
Speakers are merely linear electric motors...they don't "clip"...even when you send them "bad" watts (lol). The only two ways to kill a speaker are 1) thermal overload (too much power over a given period of time causing the voice coil to melt/short, and 2) exceeding the speakers physical limitations (improperly matched enclosure allowing the speaker to obtain 4" of p to p excursion when it's only has 3" to offer....is one example)
A speaker can play a clipped signal all day long if it's in a proper enclosure and the clipped signal dosen't exceed the speakers thermal limitations.

In fact, many people choose to send a 2:1 or 3:1 clipped signal to their woofer to get as much out of their amp as they can before reaching a point of audible distortion to them.

well it WAS a misunderstanding..


the owner was looking at the 8W7 box on the floor, which looks exactly like the 10W7 box on the shelf..

he priced me the 8W7 sealed for $450..


he now priced me the 10W7 sealed at a blowout crazyyyyy deal of $520... which i still think is good... but.. im not running out the door this second...

Originally posted by placenta
[b]The volume control is your signal voltage knob. The amps voltage is indeed always the same at ~12 volts. The amperage is what changes when you raise the volume, and more mperage is what makes your sub louder.


Well the power input is always at 12V (or whatever your electrical system is running at) and the current draw does goes up with volume (not sure if this is what you were saying or not). But at the speaker terminals it's a completely different story. At volume 0, the voltage at the speaker terminals is 0, then as you turn up the volume the voltage rises, which causes the current going through the speaker to rise linearly (I=V/R, on a basic sine wave R is constant regardless of the power). Since P=IV and the voltage and current are rising, the power you're sending to the speaker rises also. You keep turning it up and up, until your IV, or V^2/R, or I^2R (all the same, just use some substitution and you'll see) equals the power output of the amp. At that point you're sending the max, unclipped signal to your speaker. If you keep turning it up then the signal starts clipping and bad things can start to happen. If you had a more powerful amp then you could keep turning up the volume and you would just be sending more clean power to the speaker instead of distortion.

Basically, a 50 watt amp and a 100 watt amp will be the exact same up to half power. After that the 50 watt amp will start clipping and the 100 watt amp will keep going. That's the only difference.

Now, back to the 10w7. Like Devlyn said, if you want a decent amount of bass from something that doesn't take up your entire trunk, that sub should fit pretty well. Personally, I don't mind sacrificing trunk space (I'll just use the backseat instead, hehe) in order to save money on something. I think that has a lot to do with my opinions, but regardless it is a very good sub at a pretty decent price.

I listened to it for 30 mins on all my songs and then i bought it..

it sucks spending that much money.. its cool, yet depressing.

i have some tuning to do.

It might be "louder" but it does not "feel" as strong. since i went from 2 10" to 1 10".

Have fun putting that big monkey @ss sub/enclosure in your trunk. I have a few friends that bash JL, but I still think they're some of the best subs around. I had 2 10w3v2 and LOVED them.

that enclosures tiny dude.

the 10W7 has less SPL since it has less surface area than my twin 10W3s.. but the hits are a bit more clean i think.

you're crazy dude... best of luck with it... wish i was in your shoes ;)...

let it break in, it should end up being louder than the w3s (I think, what's the excursion of the w3?) after time.

no you don't.... this just went on a credit card.. nothing more..

Your concept of tiny and my concept of tiny must be 2 very different things (ahem, in regards to the sub enclosures :D ). The 10w7 I saw came with an enclosure that was only slightly smaller than the HO box for the 2 10w3. And aren't the w7 boxes all prefabbed in house by JL?

Dimensions:
14.55"H x 17.75"W x 16.75"D

just as small as my single 10" box was

you must be thinking of the H.O box for a 10W7.. thats huge.. i got the power wedge which is half the size..

Originally posted by ABT20
Your concept of tiny and my concept of tiny must be 2 very different things (ahem, in regards to the sub enclosures :D ). The 10w7 I saw came with an enclosure that was only slightly smaller than the HO box for the 2 10w3. And aren't the w7 boxes all prefabbed in house by JL?

you're probably thinking of the ported box, he has it sealed

Yeah, the HO box was enormous. Looked like a giant red eye.

http://markg.fortunecity.net/images/jl10w7.jpg

Wow, not nearly as big as all the boxes I've seen at NOW a/v. Very nice, I'm sure you'll be happy with it.

That is nice. Man, I hope it meets your expectations. It sounds like your really not that convinced of its overall performance so far...

where is your sub amp mounted now? i know youre running 2 amps, but i must have missed the "im adding another amp in addition to my tru" thread....

hahah you missed my daily changes.. that amp came out.. it was too much bass wattage for me..


ya.. im kinda depressed spending that much money and having it not blow me away.... i might end up selling it locally.. for a tiny loss..

Originally posted by placenta
I listened to it for 30 mins on all my songs and then i bought it..

it sucks spending that much money.. its cool, yet depressing.

i have some tuning to do.

It might be "louder" but it does not "feel" as strong. since i went from 2 10" to 1 10".

Originally posted by placenta
hahah you missed my daily changes.. that amp came out.. it was too much bass wattage for me..


ya.. im kinda depressed spending that much money and having it not blow me away.... i might end up selling it locally.. for a tiny loss..

WTF?? You listened to it, liked it, then didn't like it?

get used to that :)

well i liked certain parts of it.. but didnt like other parts..

If it's not broken fix it until it is, huh? I think you'll end up enjoying it if you give it time. The w7 is a GREAT sub. Just don't sell it as quickly as you bought it, which I know you're prone to do.

ya.. im already thinking about that... i should have smartened up and turned it down.. i knew it wasnt as loud as my W3s.. yet i still bought it..

prob was.. he had to charge my card to let me take it out the door.. i know he would have refunded it if i said, but whats done was done.

C'est la vie. Is there any way you could build a box for it and play with the dimensions to squeeze some more sount out of it. I'm sure the JL box is very well made for the sub, but just a thought. It may not even be worth the trouble in the end. Good luck with whatever you decide to do or not do.

you could build a nice ported box for it, that would make it quite a bit louder

I returned it this afternoon. and yes im depressed. i only got store credit. (not too bad since they carry JL, Zapco, Eclipse, PPI etc..)

I did what I felt I needed to do. For over $500, I expected it to sound a lot better than that.. My W3s didnt require any tuning to sound killer. Some ideas I have are a pair of JL 12W3v2s, it would be a nice surface area upgrade. Since I know I like the sound of W3s. Or a Zapco item or even Eclipse.

what about the MKIII you were considering earlier?

no offence to plac - but i have learned he will never be satisfied :) but he loves audio

MKIII? naw.. i'll stick with JL..


either two 12W3v2s..


or the brand new 15W3v2.. a single..

There's better out there, much better

I have a friend with 2 sealed 12w3v2s on a 500/1, my ported 12a kills them in SQ and SPL. This is according to both me and him, he sat in my car for 10 seconds and got out saying "damn, my subs can't touch that". I would move away from JL personally, they make some good products but not for the rediculous price they charge for them.

Its rediculous to compare a ported setup to a sealed setup. Totally different ballparks.

well i have $560 to spend at that store whatever i get..

Zapco
Coustic
Crossfire
PPI
Eclipse
Audio Control
MB Quart
JL

or... i spend more money and get subs somewhere else, and use that money for something else.. the ONLY thing i can think of is the brand new Eclipse Mp3 deck.. i got no complaints about my front components really.. and no complaints about my TRU amp either.. spent too much time setting it up.

you need to cut up your credit cards now, you spend too much money on your car and not enough on everything else

get an EQ

i've owed my girlfriend a ring for a couple years now..

im out of control..

why does she put up with it

Originally posted by placenta
Its rediculous to compare a ported setup to a sealed setup. Totally different ballparks.


true, but my ported 12a takes up less trunk space, cost less, sounds better, and gets louder than his 2x 12w3. When mine was sealed they were comparable in SPL but the A destroyed them in SQ

I learned yet another lesson today about what I want.

I guess "SQ" isnt for me.. cuz the 10W7 is a pure SQ sub.. I do like to feel my bass, and feel some boom, so im not looking for pure SQ anymore. Whatever W3's are, thats the type of sound im looking for..

i might audition some other ones if i come across them.

sound slike the w3v2 is the best option for you

ya.. if i play it safe.. then two 12W3v2s...

if I take another risk.. then its a 15W3v2... and im tired of taking risks.. and i been reading up about the 15W3 not having great performance in the higher end sub frequencys.. it excels at 60Hz and below..

not to mention i have 14.5" MAX, more like 14" of height to work with. a 15" sub in box would already be way too big, and it would look lame aimed at the roof.. and take up too much room.

i expect i'll go with two 12W3's... can't really lose... same power, more surface area, maybe deeper bass.


oh, and i like the way two subs work together, more than just one. two subs sound so much richer to me.

Why would you pick up larger subs to get more volume when you already pulled the 800W amp out because there was too much bass. The larger surface area will just take you right back to that point again.

I think it's safe to say that there is no method in his madness. :D

maybe u should check out the eclipse titanium subs from that shop. just listen to them and see what you think of them. i had a 15" titanium before and it sounded absolutely beautiful while getting sickening loud. just see if maybe the shop will let u demo the sub in your car or someting.

Titanium is too expensive. They dont even carry them cuz no one buys em. Theyre as expensive as W7s or pretty close.

hey plac, kind of off topic, but have you tried working the delay times yet for your fronts. just curious.

sure i have. it makes a huge difference.

but i havnt messed with SUB time correction to bring it up front.. im looking forward to messing with that.. just havnt really needed to yet..

on topic, i had my deck out and hooked it up wrong yesterday. my fronts are using my REAR RCA.. i was confused for a long while, cuz my time correction didnt seem to effect anything.. then i realized my mistake. so i need to switch my rear RCA to my front RCA tonight when i get home.

time correction is a HUGE improvment.. for anyone that hasnt used it.. you can see the music come across right into the center of your window as you adjust it. its really amazing.

my sub decision is still as stands..


two JL 12W3v2s... its my safest bet so i dont waste any more money. my 10W3v2s sounded great this morning.. but i want slightly better. i never had a 12" sub in my entire life.. i can't wait.

i can dig it. i used 12s in like 1990 for a couple of years, but i went to 10s, one or two for the longest time. but last year i switched back to two 12s and i remember why i used to use them.
and i could not live w/o delay in my car, they just don't image properly without. :-)

I have a 10w3v2 in one car and it sounds great. I'm more than happy with it for the price. However, it pales in comparison to my 12w6v2's in my Sentra for both sound quality and output. If you can find a shop that has them, give the w6v2's a listen :)

ya.. ive heard the W6s in that shop.. theyre def good.. but everyone keeps trying to get my to go bigger... i just dont want the top line expensive stuff.. all areas considered.. The W3s are what I like, given weight, and everything else.

The new w6's do take up quite a bit of room and are pretty heavy, but I bet 2 10w6's would sound better than 2 12w3's :)
The w6's also like small enclosures which is a plus. I don't think you can go wrong with w3's for the price though.

Originally posted by placenta
my sub decision is still as stands..


two JL 12W3v2s... its my safest bet so i dont waste any more money. my 10W3v2s sounded great this morning.. but i want slightly better. i never had a 12" sub in my entire life.. i can't wait.

Going from 10W3V2 to 12W3V2 isn't going to sound 'better', its just going to increase in volume and SPL... and again, why would you want to do that when you already said that going from 500W to 800W made the bass to loud for you.

Originally posted by DevlynSyde
Going from 10W3V2 to 12W3V2 isn't going to sound 'better',

I guess that depends on the type of music you listen to. I typically like the smallest sub that will give me the volume that I want because I mostly listen to rock. The best "sounding" car I've heard had 2 8w7's. That might be the best plan for output and SQ. I went with 12's in the Sentra because I wanted drop :)

The more I think about it...Placenta, how about 2 8w7's? They sound incredible and will drop pretty good in a ported enclosure.

i hate ported. i hate loose.

Ps. I did think about 8W7s.. but i want DEEP, which is why im goign from 10's to 12s. my home theatre sub is a JBL 12 and its killer.

Originally posted by placenta
i hate ported. i hate loose.

Ps. I did think about 8W7s.. but i want DEEP, which is why im goign from 10's to 12s. my home theatre sub is a JBL 12 and its killer.

I don't generally like ported either, but it seems to work for small subs. To my ear, a ported 8 sounds about like a 13 sealed. Just with less output. Bigger subs start to sound sloppy to me. Ideally, it's nice to find a small sub that can drop. The 8w7's in my friends car truly drops.

I'm not sure that I shouldn't have gone with 10w7's. I was scared off by the airspace recommendations for them.

BTW, what type of music do you listen to? That makes a big difference in what size sounds right. I don't much like my 12's for rock, but they absolutely pound for rap/techno/dance/etc.

i listen to all things on my reference CD.. female vocals, trance, bass, instruments, male vocals, jazz,

Originally posted by placenta
i hate ported. i hate loose.

Ps. I did think about 8W7s.. but i want DEEP, which is why im goign from 10's to 12s. my home theatre sub is a JBL 12 and its killer.

A proper ported enclosure with a good sub can sound almost exactly like sealed (just with a lot more output). I hate to keep going back to my sub, but it is tighter than any setup I've heard before, sealed or ported. It also drops lower than any setup I've heard before. Have you ever heard a good sub in a good ported box or are you just assuming it must sound boomy and loose because it's ported? Put it in a relatively small box tuned in the 20's and it will sound nearly identical to sealed.

i had a few ported setups in the late 80's.

I would like to mention one thing in addition to this thread....

That 10w7 retails for well over $600. The place I usually buy JL from is OnlineCarStereo.com. They have the 10w7 for $500. No enclosure.

Honestly, if I could get it for $450, with an enclosure, I would jump all over it.

Only one thing, they always recommend using a slotted port box for optimal sound, with the w7's

Honestly, if I could get it for $450, with an enclosure, I would jump all over it

It was $520 + tax, 10W7 + box, which wasnt quite as good a deal as i thought.

On the first page, you said he could get it for you for $450....

yes i did. But you are supposed to read the whole thread to see how things progress.

Originally posted by placenta
i had a few ported setups in the late 80's.

I think it is safe to say that a FEW things have changed since the late 80's... like umm... jeezus christ that is a long time ago.

Subwoofers are quite a bit different than previous times, back then a 15 was an all out SPL sub and had no resemblance of quality sound... jeezh... late 80's. Give ported a try... esp with a quality sub like the W7 that is recommended for a ported enclosure...

80's were a great time for car stereo.. I had two Kicker Stillwater Design boxes.. 2 6" boxes.. I bungie corded them to teh back seat of my '76 Corolla. Those things slammed so hard. They were the ported style, with those rectangle horns built in. "Hot for Teacher" seriously hammered my heart super nice. Can't beleive the performance I got out of those 6" boxes.

And I remember two distinct tweeters I had.. The rockford Fosgate Punch tweeters.. They were about 3" round, and had a red inner circle on front. Those sounded better than anything I've heard lately. And also, I had some square kicker tweets, they were about 3" square. They rocked too. For some reason, I dont think they make tweets like they used to.

Originally posted by placenta
For some reason, I dont think they make tweets like they used to.

I agree! They are louder and handle the "tisss" sound better, but don't do voices like the used to. I miss the really well made silk domes.

BTW, I had Boston Acoustic mids and highs, Yamaha 4-channel amp, Sony HU, 2 punch pro 15's, and a Punch power 650 in '89. Those were good times :)

First system was Yamaha HU, Yamaha amps, BA mids and highs and Bazooka tubes :D In 1988 it was alright, but BIG, BIG bass was just becoming the rage.

Got a nice dual 12 box today to start with.

should fit better than my dual 10 box. cuz it has the slanted rear to match teh seats.

Thought you might want to see this:
http://www.b15sentra.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=75895

hahaha thats a trip... exactly what im getting...

but i only like new speakers.. just a personal thing..

Can't say I didn't try... :D

mainly cuz i have to use this $560 credit.. and i dont really want to buy something just for the sake of spending money.. so i want this money to go to the part i want to upgrade.

which is what? heh

the subs i guess, is my weakest part of my system as of today. no way im replacing my deck, my front comps are Ok... sometimes the tweet sounds a bit scratchy.. i might do tweets sometime later.. amp stays for sure, it does all that it should do.. just could use a tad deeper bass..

LMFAO...he'll change his mind on the deck in about 5 mins!!! :D

my new box:

http://markg.fortunecity.net/images/newbox1.jpg

It fits better than my dual 10 box! the angle at back is excatly matching to the rear seat slant. Takes up no more space than my 10" box, except 1" taller. The slant makes it no deeper either. And its 1" LESS wide than my dual 10 box. My dual 10 box is all one chamber. This one has separated chambers. I might find out its volume just for fun, gotta figure out how to do it accurately.

Plans:

Swap the round banana plug blocks with rectangle blocks. (The rounds are just spring connected, I want screw down plugs.)

Go by streetbeat and buy two 12W3v2-D4's. Run those the same way as my dual 10's. In 2 ohm on each channel, but RCA inputting mono signal into amp. I think the stereo 2 ohm config sounds better than 1 channel bridged. It might be the same wattage, but it just sounds better.

I still dont understand...I thought that other older sub setup had too much bass but whatever, maybe this will give you the bass you are looking for. Good luck with it.

had too much bass with that PPI 800watts.

This 600W off my TRU is a lot more balanced, not to mention a lot cleaner.

You're not quite comprehending... 800W from the PPI to two 10's = not as loud as 600W to two 12's. 800W on two 10's was too loud, therefore, two 12's will be louder...?

Damn dood, I know the TRU amp is great and all, but more balanced... a lot cleaner...?

you're not comprehending, i cant explain it any further.


I'm trying to get my box volumes now. I have the following measurements so far:

My box has a trapezoid side, so ill never be able to accurately measure it. I never was good at geometry.. I'll go get some measurements tho..

I measured one chamber.. the INSIDE of course, not the outside.

Height: 12.5"
Width: 12.5"
Depth at top: 11"
Depth at bottom: 14"

converted to feet:

Height: 1.04'
Width: 1.04'
Depth at top: .91'
Depth at bottom: 1.16'

If i remember correctly:

((.91'+1.16')/2)*1.04'*1.04'=1.119456 cu. ft. for your trapezoid box

damn you are good. exactly what i got. except i got it a different way. ill post when CAF comes back up.

ok the rectangle itself is:

1.04' (L) x 1.04' (H) x .91' (W) = .98 cu ft

+

the triangle itself is:

1.04' (H) x .25' (B) / 2 = .13 cu ft

1.11 cu ft each chamber. kinda small but i wanted small. And thats not mentioning woofer displacment.

oops, edit...read your post again. But i know a few people running subs with larger boxes that tend to like the lower sound it can generate. Varies from driver to driver tho...

Thats a bit smaller than JL recommends... one would think that would lend to not giving the deeper bass that you were looking for.

JL recommends 1.0 - 1.5.

Thats true, I was going by what their spec sheet gives dimensions for (1.25 cu ft). Still on the bottom of the totem pole. *shrug*

ya ur right. my system wil suck. thanks for pointing that out.

Don't remember saying that, just trying to help you not end up returning the speakers because they don't hit the deep notes you are wanting, when all that is needed is a simple box build day.

Originally posted by placenta
ya your right. my system wil suck. thanks for pointing that out.

i wouldnt be making any compromises if i were you, placenta... cause you know youre just going to end up ripping it out again and replacing it with a 1.25 cu ft per channel box...

This box is too perfect a fit. I doubt I will be able to tell the difference in .20-.25 difference in box size.. i mean i hear something different every day and nothing changes.. i can always have a nice box made by Phil on CAF later if i really dont like it. But my 10" box is under sized also, and its killer. so there you go.

Originally posted by placenta
This box is too perfect a fit. I doubt I will be able to tell the difference in .20-.25 difference in box size.. i mean i hear something different every day and nothing changes.. i can always have a nice box made by Phil on CAF later if i really dont like it. But my 10" box is under sized also, and its killer. so there you go.

Checked out woofer displacement in relation to box volume?

The two chambers combined could add up to a good deal of displacement.

No one here honestly believes we can change your mind, just throwing out some other stuff to others reading. :D

I saw some nice single 15" boxes at the store too.. I might buy one of those for a 15W3v2 also. For when im in mood for boom.

If nothing ever changes despite all of the changes you've made, why do you continue to throw more money at the problem that apparently doesn't exist. If your box for the 10s is perfect, why the desire for deeper bass? .20-.25 is hardly a slight difference when you're talking about such low numbers. And as far as the 15WW3v2, unless its vastly different than the 12W3v2 other than sizing... if it has similar excursion capabilities and given the same power, how is it going to give you more boom than the 2 12W3v2s?

Dev, he likes to try different things.

His amplifier purchases should show that quite clearly. :D

Honestly, I would tend to agree. I had a .75^3 ft box for my 10w3v2. It didn't quite match up with my tastes (that was accounting for driver displacement)

I spoke with one of the gurus over at C.A.F, (JMAC for those of you who are on over there) and he had me bump up the displacement to .94^3 ft. He came up with the dimensions, as he has a program that calculates output. Couldn't be happier

Originally posted by WhiteSpecV
Dev, he likes to try different things.

His amplifier purchases should show that quite clearly. :D


I know, but why post it here if not for asking for opinions? I have to assume that he would rather not purchase things and not be happy... that he would have prefered to not have bought the W7 at this point.

Sometimes he wants opinions. Other times, he doesn't. I dunno.

I know he hates everything JL makes except for their subs.

I have the same component set as you, and I love it. I just needed a better amp to drive them, speaking of which.....

My 300/4 should be arriving today.. hehe. Gotta go buy another piece of 1/2" mdf for the new amp rack....

just got back w some accessories..

screw down banana terminals instead of springs..

for my new box.. and i finally got real JL 12" grills.. the proper kind.. grills cost me $20 a piece, but ive always wanted the REAL JL grills.. i have cheap metal ones on my 10's..

Originally posted by placenta
just got back w some accessories..

screw down banana terminals instead of springs..

for my new box.. and i finally got real JL 12" grills.. the proper kind.. grills cost me $20 a piece, but ive always wanted the REAL JL grills.. i have cheap metal ones on my 10's..

I have a real one as well. They look best on the sub, plus won't block the excursion of the cone. The surround will push right along the grill.

I also have the JL grilles. They were a bit of a pain to get. The w6v2's can't use the regular JL grilles because they have too much excursion and will hit :D

One nice thing is they say W6 on them :)

Check my cardomain page if you haven't seen them.

yup, shoudl be sweet. i never use the super cheap plastic waffle ones.. but i used the metal ones on most of my subs.. and they def dont give much breathing room.. not to mention they dont fit great over the outer edge of the speaker..

i would have got my subs today, but the store is closed only on Tuesdays..... go figure..

I also have the JL grilles. They were a bit of a pain to get.

Exactly.. thats why I jumped on them even if they were $20 each.. cuz if i ordered on internet, i'd have to paying shipping anyway, and thats IF I could even find them.. he had 10" JL grills too.. i wanted to get two to fix up my dual 10" box... but $40 bux extra just to have it look good, i just couldnt do it..

Originally posted by placenta
but i used the metal ones on most of my subs..

Same here. It's nice to finally have a good fitting, decent looking grill :)

got my larger circle screw down terminals installed. now all i need is my subs. hopefully tomorrow.

http://markg.fortunecity.net/images/newbox2.jpg

assembled. Will be installing in trunk in a few mins.

hurry up!! j/k :D

I will try to make a decent review, although i'm not the most stable when it comes to car stereo. Review wont even start until tomorrow. I listened for 60 seconds, and I'm real excited. I couldnt turn it up even half way, or I would have disturbed my neighbors. Initial instinct is its a lot thicker. The hits were more full and powerful. Thats all I got since I havnt even started my reiview yet.

Reference for noobs:

I have been running two 10W3v2's sealed for a few months now. I am very used to their sound. I tried a single 10W7 a few days ago, and it wasnt enough SPL for me. I think it will be quite obvious as to any differences as I have come very accustomed to dual 10's.

First impressions.. good and bad..

Notes: nothing at all changed in settings. Just unplugged my dual 10's and plugged in my dual 12's.

Not as loud. I'm 100% sure. Cuz my fronts now way overpower my sub, and i had to turn the fronts down. With the 10's, it was perfectly balanced front to back. PS, my sub gain knob is always at +15. Well, almost always. So I lost loudness. I think a lot of this might be related to the undersized box. Well, I hope.. my box has 2 chambers at 1.11 cu. ft before subwoofer placment. I figure the sub might take as much as 25% of that, putting me way low at .85 cu ft possibly? this sub asks for 1.0-1.5 cu ft. per sub. I dont know if JL means before or after sub placement. There are a couple positives tho. Its deeper for sure. I get more vibrations, which could be considered good. "Welcome to the machine" is one of my test songs for teh opening sub. With 10's it was cool, and i could go all the way up and not flinch. But with these 12's, it actually hurt my ears, and i couldnt stay at full volume for more than 5 seconds. I can't have expected much, since i didnt raise my wattage at all, it wasnt much difference at all, except a 25% increase in cone area. I'm not sure why its not as loud. Its nice "having 12's", but as of right this second, theyre not as good as my 10's. I will consider getting a custom box made possibly.

The sub displacement will be listed on JLs site, most likely its below .1 cu ft. No where near 25% of the box though.

Also, the smaller box will cause the box to have less ability to drop the low notes. As for actual volume... it will play some part but I doubt it would cause as much difference as the excursion and cone area increase from the 10s to the 12s. Also, unlike the W7, give it more time to break in and some improvement will occur.

Why would the lower end sub take more time to break in than a W7, which is more high end and tighter?


ohhh... you meant.. at least give the 12W3s a chance, unlike I did with the 10W7? now i get it..

Originally posted by placenta
ohhh... you meant.. at least give the 12W3s a chance, unlike I did with the 10W7? now i get it..

Not necessarily that you didn't give the 10W7, as I can see how the 10W7 would have difficulty at same settings to overpower 2 10W3's, it would be heads above it in SQ, but SPL would be similar. However the 12's will have more SPL than the 10s, no question. Its only a matter of finding out why they don't currently.

trust me placenta you should really port those subs u wont be disappointed. they will take up more room in your trunk though. just try to tune low like 30hz or less. because even if you get a larger sealed box it wont be that much louder maybe a db or 2 but thats it. the thing a bigger box will is change how the sub sounds (more emphasis on the low end) but honestly .2 or .3 cubic feet will not make a huge difference volume (spl) wise. i mean u spend all this money on car audio so whats 150 bucks or less really gonna be when you have already spent thousands to get what u like. just try out a ported box and if you dont like it just sell it to someone of caf or here.

$150 on a box?
just set aside an afternoon and make your own for $30 max for wood, terminals, glue, and screws

i see the pieces of the puzzle are coming together for ya plac :-) have you o'scoped your sys to set the gains? i know most alpines clipped the pre amp out at around 28-30. if you have access to a 'scope and the autosound2000 set up discs, tweak with those. be afraid, be very afraid!

Either my MB Quart's suck or you really like bass. I rarely have my bass set higher than +5 and at that my mids and highs are pretty much drowned out. Does anyone know off the top of their head how to turn the subs off with an Alpine HU?

NM, I just found my manual....man I have a LOT of reading to do.

Did you add any polyfill? I'd start out w/6oz per chamber and go up from there as needed. No need in buying a new box without at least trying to make this one work...;)

since i blew over $550 on this setup, box and subs and grills, i have to give it a try.. i cant give up too quick.

it just doesnt sound good.. at all.. what im talking about is just basic good sound.. its void of... no clean hits, mostly muddy.. seems muffled cuz of the small box.. i need to find out the subs displacment inside box but jls site is down for me. as of today.. my dual 10's sound WAY better. they are louder, and cleaner. The only thing the 12's have is more vibration, and lows, but quieter.


i am so pissed about my whole car audio career... way too pissed to cry.. nothing ever goes right for me..

im gonna do something enjoyable.. im going out to remove my Thermal exhaust and put my stock back on for a while.. im damn sick of the freeway droning every single time i drive.. its annoying as hell..

I think your problem is the car. Listen to it in different locations. I first thought my 12's sounded bad, then I realized it was the car. The 12's go low enough to vibrate most of the interior parts and add what sounds like distortion.

Originally posted by 03blackout
i wouldnt be making any compromises if i were you, placenta... cause you know youre just going to end up ripping it out again and replacing it with a 1.25 cu ft per channel box...

quoting myself... referring to you buying the 1.1 ct ft per channel box...

:D :D :D

but like someone said, id definitely try polyfill first... itll help a bit, for 99 cents at rag shop... after $550, i think its worth a try....

i might. i always knew the size wasnt optimum. but i didnt think it would be that bad...

well to relieve my stress i took my sub box out tonight.. it sinks my rear a damn inch.. im gonna drive one day without it, and just ponder what I'm missing..

sometimes you just need a break from car stereo... at least i do..

an 8W7 in a huge box would be killer.




j/k..

The displacement listed on the site is .07 cu ft btw.

whaaaaaa?

only .07 cu ft inside box?? less than a 1/10th of a square foot?? man thats hard to beleive..

so if my chamber is

1.11 - .07 = 1.04 cu ft per chamber...

anyways.. today was super relaxing drive to work.. no stinking subs to worry about.. just a perfect front stage, crystal clear...

Driver Displacement: 0.07 ft3 1.98 litres

*shrug* Yea... thats what is listed on the specs page of JL's site... should have come with the subs on a sheet of paper... or not...

But still for $350!!! That is a lot, hell I got my L7's for cheaper than that, same SQ and they are 750wrms, which is a lot more than the W7. But like they say, if it is personal preference that you are looking for, then go for it. I love my sound system.

you're high if you think Kicker L7s have the same sound quality as JL W7s. Not on the same level at all. L7s are for one thing, SPL.

I put my 12" subs back in last night to try them again today. They still sound like crap, cant tell if theyre getting any louder. I'm gonna leave them in all day for some trips and really try to get more out of them.

My minds playing tricks on me now. My front stage is sounding terrible. Maybe its the CDs I was playing, but it was scratchy and muddy mostly. Maybe my TRU gain was too high, (1/8), so im gonna turn it down a tad.

What sucks is I'll always wonder how that JBL PX600.2 would sound on my front stage. I have a feeling that I'd think it was more musical than TRU, and im afraid to find out. The TRU is currently a nice complete amp to run my whole system. I dont like changing stuff that works. And I'd have a whole nother problem if I did try it, cuz then I'd need a sub amp also.

Originally posted by placenta
What sucks is I'll always wonder how that JBL PX600.2 would sound on my front stage. I have a feeling that I'd think it was more musical than TRU, and im afraid to find out.

Its at this point that I think you'd be happer with JBL amps and Infinity Kappa components and subs. You're buying higher and higher end stuff and getting no more satisfaction than you had in the first place. My advice: stay away from CAF, ECA, SIN, etc. There is always something that will be better to the masses of audiophiles, this doesn't mean it will be better for you, but it will put constant doubt in your mind. I've stopped going to any of those sites since I've purchased my system because of this and it keeps the upgrade bug away pretty well. It ensures I'm only going to upgrade something *I* am unhappy with, not others.

don't really wanna steal the thread, how are the elemental designs 10's the O series i believe.

I've stopped going to any of those sites since I've purchased my system because of this and it keeps the upgrade bug away pretty well.

Man thats a great idea.. cuz all I do is think about car stereo 24/7/365 days a year.. I'm so sick of worrying about car stereo.

I'm so crazed about car stereo that I put my rears back in tonight. Focal Polyglass, mids AND tweet. Four full corners. I want to see if I can tune the four corners, not for imaging, but just so they sound decent. No subs for a day or two while I work on this. I used to love having rears before all those forums corrupted me. Then I will decide if I want to go to JBL amps, since I am way bored with this TRU amp by now, and it just doesnt satisfy me anymore. I'll think about my amp choices later on.

guess who is finally in the process of scoring another p80.4 and... a bp1200.1... i was about to order a new 600.1 off ebay, when i somehoe found a barely used 1200.1 for around $75 less than the 600.1 new...

i have NO need for a 1200watt sub amp, and will never move tha gain past ¼ of the way, but, oh well... the trunk setup is going to look sooooo clean with 3 matching amps...

WEIRD DUDE!!

I came from ebay just now, and was looking at ALL the JBL amps!! ROFL!!

the old ones even... those r getting damn hard to find.. i was thinking how nice and compact 2 P180.2's and one 1200.1 would be... Prob take up no more space than my TRU total. maybe a tad more.

I kinda wanted to go with the new JBL amps.. the only thing I dont like is their footprint.. way too big..

I will still go on record, to say the JBL P180.2 amp I had was the most rich musical amp I've ever heard. Not the loudest, but the nicest SQ.. Maybe I should follow my instincts.. But I'd have to sell some chit... I got a lot of money tied up right now.

Final edit... I'm gonna go to bed now.. My mind is spinning..

i'm telling you... ignore your clenliness gene and buy a p80.4 and bridge it... 160x2 of clean power for $150 shipped!!!

i dont like bridging. so id go with a couple 2 channels myself.

bp1200.1 isnt going to work out... guy selling it is shady as HELL... as much as i dont want to pass up a sweet oportunity, i dont want to lose my money either...

everything he says, he later contradicts, and he also tried to charge me $15 on TOP of shipping costs, for a box and foam to pack it in... **** him... ill get a amp with ½ the power, and ill still be happy, cause i wont have to worry about weird people...

but im trading the usb4085 for the p80.4 and some cash, definitely, so im extremely happy right now...

and he also tried to charge me $15 on TOP of shipping costs, for a box and foam to pack it in... **** him...

hahhaha... sounds like me.... those boxes and packing get expensive you know.. I've spent $15 on supplies many times to ship things.

Im looking for a decent system.. Ive been into trucks for so long.. I forgot all about space..What do you think would make a good combo? for componets, subs and amps? I'm running a premier 940 .. sweet deck :) picked it up for practically nothing.. whatcha think?

i had some systems in my 97 nissan 2WD truck, single cab. It was VERY hard to find a box small enough, i had a single 10. Actually, I think it was a single 8 box and i enlarged it to a 10. It only stole one click from my seat slider.

Depends if you have a standard tiny cab or something bigger. Amp size is the utmost importance in trucks. I had a rediculously large Sony Mobile ES in it once.. it was like a tank.

http://markg.fortunecity.net/images/amp.jpg

http://markg.fortunecity.net/images/currstereo2.jpg

Had a old school PPI 125 x 2 amp once, older than art series:

http://markg.fortunecity.net/images/PPI.jpg

I think thats my PPI 6 channel and a pic of my box, i'm not sure.

http://markg.fortunecity.net/images/amps3.jpg

My Eclipse deck and PPI EQ:

http://markg.fortunecity.net/images/deck3.jpg

Kicks I had made:

http://markg.fortunecity.net/images/pods3.jpg

Had some MB Quart Premiums on 1" solid wood spacers on outside of door.

http://markg.fortunecity.net/images/currstereo3.jpg

You're prob asking what the hell does this have to do with your question? Well, before you even think about brands you gotta decide on a layout, and whats gonna work well in your car.

HAHAHA OPPS...

just realized you dont even have a truck anymore....

Well.. ok.. that looked like a mess :) lol its all good.. as long as it sounds good.. I am looking for something with decent SQ inside as i like to listen to many different kinds of music..I also like bass alot.. not to much not to little.. a fair amount.. I like my rear view mirror to move.. LOL.. i also use my truck alot.. for my golf bag and whatever.. so I do want to use all my trunk space.. I dont know.. I really just need something.. hmmm

B

as far as the mess... thats the build quality of my systems in 1998-1999.. check my sig for current projects.

Looks good.. but that still doesnt help me with what I am looking for or whatever ;)

no one can help you with that little of info. You didnt even mention what price ranges you are considering. But everyone here likes different things.. you should check out everyones siggy.

i can say what i like: Focal components. Polyglass are a good value for the focal for what you get.

I like JL subs, just a personal choice.

Amps are impossible for me to decide on. I've had a lot in th elast year, and each one is good for one thing or another.

I guess a basic question... You want one or two amps? You want rear speakers? And you want a single sub, dual?

hey placenta, got some subs here that will put a real smile on your face. http://www.ddaudio.com/gallery.asp


these things sound so good and are extemely loud especially in 10" version. one will out pound your jl's

if your interested a guy in town here sell the loudest and some of the cleanest 10" subs in the world. he recently hit 158db real with one. the guy who developed them has the 5 loudest vehicle in the world.

they are called beyond audio.

Originally posted by specracer2
hey placenta, got some subs here that will put a real smile on your face. http://www.ddaudio.com/gallery.asp


these things sound so good and are extemely loud especially in 10" version. one will out pound your jl's

The DDs are SPL subs. You can play music through them without it sounding horrible, but they are not SQ subs in any way.

2 amps.. dual subs..

IMHO, this is what I've decided after many years of participating in and listening to high end car audio. Subs are subs. All that matters is how hard they can pound in how much space and with how much power. SQ is mostly about the mids and highs. I don't care what any audio forum "pro" says, I prefer the full rich sound of 4 corners. I've spent as many years as Placenta at this (first system in '88) and have decided the "pros" only know what will sound good on a spectrum analyzer and what produces SPL.

I have JL 12w6v2's because of their ability to produce a lot of volume in a relatively small space. I'm happy with them. Unfortunatly, I went with the "pros" suggestion and used MB Quart Pro's for my mids and highs. They produce a LOT of clean, boring sound. I will soon "upgrade" to Boston Acoustics. I had them in my last system and they sound better to my ear.

Basically, it's all about what makes you happy...not some "pro."

Originally posted by GreddyRacerV
2 amps.. dual subs..

wtf?

I understand that bro.. I like JL Audio Subs alot.. thats what I plan on going with.. I was never really into componet speakers.. so I do know.. I was thinking maybe Boston or Infinity Kappa.. not sure.. What kind of power can those w6's take? Not to mention is there alot of stock trunk rattle on these nissans? Thanks for the imput in advance

Originally posted by FLSpecV
IMHO, this is what I've decided after many years of participating in and listening to high end car audio. Subs are subs. All that matters is how hard they can pound in how much space and with how much power. SQ is mostly about the mids and highs. I don't care what any audio forum "pro" says, I prefer the full rich sound of 4 corners. I've spent as many years as Placenta at this (first system in '88) and have decided the "pros" only know what will sound good on a spectrum analyzer and what produces SPL.

I have JL 12w6v2's because of their ability to produce a lot of volume in a relatively small space. I'm happy with them. Unfortunatly, I went with the "pros" suggestion and used MB Quart Pro's for my mids and highs. They produce a LOT of clean, boring sound. I will soon "upgrade" to Boston Acoustics. I had them in my last system and they sound better to my ear.

Basically, it's all about what makes you happy...not some "pro."

if subs can't have SQ, they why don't you go buy an Audiobahn or Kicker? They can move a lot more air and get a lot louder than the w6 can, for like 1/3 the price.

Also, MBQ speakers have great SQ but they don't sound very full to me. They're very bright, and very detailed, but they lack midbass punch and a general "warm" feeling. I consider BAs to be an upgrade coming from MBQs, I'm not a fan of MBQ.

Originally posted by 2001 SE #2
wtf?


wtf? what? problem?

what was the "2 amps, dual subs" comment all about?

Originally posted by 2001 SE #2
if subs can't have SQ, they why don't you go buy an Audiobahn or Kicker? They can move a lot more air and get a lot louder than the w6 can, for like 1/3 the price.


They can't produce the SPL in the same amount of space with the same amount of power. In your defense, they also don't efficiently operate in as wide of a frequency range.

Originally posted by 2001 SE #2
Also, MBQ speakers have great SQ but they don't sound very full to me. They're very bright, and very detailed, but they lack midbass punch and a general "warm" feeling. I consider BAs to be an upgrade coming from MBQs, I'm not a fan of MBQ.

I agree entirely!!! That was my point about "theoretically good sound" vs. sounding good to the ear. Technically, the MBQ's are probably better, but who cares. They don't "sound" as good.

Originally posted by GreddyRacerV
What kind of power can those w6's take? Not to mention is there alot of stock trunk rattle on these nissans? Thanks for the imput in advance

I have a JL 1000/1 on 2 12w6v2's. They handle it without a problem. I have the ENTIRE car Dynamat'ed. The trunk handles it fine, but the rest of the car sounds like cr ap. I need to isolate some of the rattles, but this is the worst car I've ever put a system in. :(

Originally posted by FLSpecV
they also don't efficiently operate in as wide of a frequency range.

how do you know that?
the only way to be sure is to have an actual test done with them, you can't trust manufacturer's specs because they all rate differently.
and the kicker L7s are more efficient than the w6v2, go in the same size box, and can take more power

I'm not trying to start a fight or anything, but I do believe subs have SQ differences. Very large differences actually. Most of the differences are attributed to their frequency response, but MANY cheaper drivers don't stay linear past 5mm of excursion, which really throws off the sound (depending on how bad it is).

You make a good point.
I only go by what I hear. Not the manufacturers overrated specs. I've actually heard a vehicle with a JL 1000/1 and two 12" L7's...it didn't sound as good. Once again, it's all personal preference. You really need to listen to as many systems as you can and see what you like. The L7's sounded "boomy" to me. That may be a bad explanation, but it's what I describe as bass that isn't accurate. They also didn't have the spl of my JL's. It might have been the vehicle or the box, but it made me go with JL's.

BTW, before my JL's I had Kicker Solobarics back when they were round. They "sounded" better to me than the new square ones. Once again, just a personal preference.

In the end though, the subs just aren't as important as the mids and highs for SQ.

Originally posted by 2001 SE #2
I'm not trying to start a fight or anything, but I do believe subs have SQ differences. Very large differences actually. Most of the differences are attributed to their frequency response, but MANY cheaper drivers don't stay linear past 5mm of excursion, which really throws off the sound (depending on how bad it is).

Sorry, I started responding before your edit. I agree entirely with what you are saying. I just wouldn't look to my subs as the first problem with general sound quality issues. Usually it's the mids that are lacking. I know that is my current case. The MB highs SCREAM, but the mids aren't quite right. I'm actually considering adding a JL 300/2 powering a set of Boston Acoustic z6's in custom kick panels just add enough mid and mid bass to the total sound.

yeah, normally the highs are to blame if something's lacking in the system. He's running good speakers off a good amp with well-deadened doors though, so I don't think that's the problem here. Maybe all you need is a nice EQ plac, maybe get an EQX in the trunk, spend a couple hours setting it up. It's worth a shot before you go spending another $500 on something you'll most likely just be disappointed in.

I'm a midbass addict personally, 50-100Hz is heaven for me. It never really sounded right until I set the HP at 50 (or 80 if it starts to sound a little muddy), left the LP at 80, went in and turned up 80Hz on a wide slope. It sounds a little crazy written down, but it sounds perfect to my ears. It took god knows how many hours of just sitting in my car changing things in the EQ before I finally found this setting, now all I change is the sub preout level depending on how bass heavy the song is.

Ok I'm rambling again....I guess my point is maybe all you need is a couple hours to sit there and screw with your EQ, or get a better EQ if the one built into the headunit doesn't have enough features. Give the subs atleast a week to break in before you sell them too, they need a chance. Or like the guys on CAF were saying, maybe all you need is a 2-3cf/sub box to get the response you want.

Originally posted by FLSpecV
Subs are subs. All that matters is how hard they can pound in how much space and with how much power.

Originally posted by FLSpecV
I've actually heard a vehicle with a JL 1000/1 and two 12" L7's...it didn't sound as good.
....
The L7's sounded "boomy" to me. That may be a bad explanation, but it's what I describe as bass that isn't accurate.
...
BTW, before my JL's I had Kicker Solobarics back when they were round. They "sounded" better to me than the new square ones. Once again, just a personal preference.


So which is it, are subs subs, or can they have different sound qualities? You kind of jump back and forth depending on the particular question, dont' you think? Right...

Originally posted by ABT20
Have fun putting that big monkey @ss sub/enclosure in your trunk. I have a few friends that bash JL, but I still think they're some of the best subs around. I had 2 10w3v2 and LOVED them.

Trunkspace?? We dont need no stinkin' trunkspace!

http://www.burnspot.com/modules/xcgal/albums/userpics/10049/DSC00005%7E0.JPG


PS I like the w7 Plac. Looks sweeet.

Originally posted by SunburstSpec-v
Trunkspace?? We dont need no stinkin' trunkspace!

http://www.burnspot.com/modules/xcgal/albums/userpics/10049/DSC00005%7E0.JPG


PS I like the w7 Plac. Looks sweeet.

When I have money to afford many cars, I will certainly do that :D But for now, I need some trunk space...

why did u get a good sub (alpine) but bad amps? but nice nonless...

i had a Pioneer Premier 30Wrms x 4 once.. it was great.. unbeleiveably clean and loud for that low rating..

Originally posted by DevlynSyde
So which is it, are subs subs, or can they have different sound qualities? You kind of jump back and forth depending on the particular question, dont' you think? Right...

Drinking and posting can get you into trouble :D
I was trying to say that the subs are the least important aspect of SQ. IMO, first is the car, second are the mids, highs, third is the amps, fourth is the enclosure, and finally the subs.

Originally posted by PhatVSpec
why did you get a good sub (alpine) but bad amps? but nice nonless...

I dont know why people think Pioneer amps are bad. Just because they dont cost an arm and a leg? I have Kappa Mids/highs and that amp drives them perfectly. And it sounds beautifull.

Ive owned Fosgate, Kenwood, Infinity, JL, and Old Old Soundstream amps. And Id have to rate my Pioneers as second best (Behind the Infinity)
Their speakers may suck, their heads ... so so. But their amps are top quality if you ask me.

i would diagree, i had a Pioneer 750 watt amp and now i have a JL 500/1 and even though the JL is less power it still is so much cleaner and it just overal kill the pioneer. i did have a us acoustics amp that would pound the crap outta my subs with less power but clarity was less then the pioneer and far less then the JL.

Originally posted by PhatVSpec
i would diagree, i had a Pioneer 750 watt amp and now i have a JL 500/1 and even though the JL is less power it still is so much cleaner and it just overal kill the pioneer. i did have a us acoustics amp that would pound the crap outta my subs with less power but clarity was less then the pioneer and far less then the JL.

First... you're comparing slightly different priced amps to each other... so its kinda pointless for you to continue the arguement since saying he bought cheap amps and a good sub... when both are good budget equipment. Its not like the Type R is a fantastic woofer... its just great for its price.

Second... Pioneer's 760W amps are peak power... not RMS. So comparing the JL to the Pioneer in his case again is pointless. The power just doesn't even make sense to compare.

Third... the clarity differences between amps when pushed to a subwoofer are so miniscule that its ridiculous... so FAR less clarity is just amazing to me.

so what about price..

do u get off nit picking everything I say, cuz it sure as hell seems like it

The alpine type R to some is just as equal to JL so I dont find it to be cheap or anything, maybe the best bang for the buck but not cheap at all.

I never mentioned peak or rms I just stated manufactures power level, and I think everyone knows the JL 500/1 doesnt run at 500 watts rms but rather 600. I didnt know u need specifics.

Next why cant i compare, that is the whole point as he was comparinf the pioneer as well, am I not following rules on the board or something?

Next why would i care what you feel is good clairty and if you like it? Just like you dont know why I compared the amps i did. If you feel the need to nit pick me just shove your foot in your mouth.

Originally posted by PhatVSpec
so what about price..

do you get off nit picking everything I say, cuz it sure as hell seems like it

The alpine type R to some is just as equal to JL so I dont find it to be cheap or anything, maybe the best bang for the buck but not cheap at all.

I never mentioned peak or rms I just stated manufactures power level, and I think everyone knows the JL 500/1 doesnt run at 500 watts rms but rather 600. I didnt know you need specifics.

Next why cant i compare, that is the whole point as he was comparinf the pioneer as well, am I not following rules on the board or something?

Next why would i care what you feel is good clairty and if you like it? Just like you dont know why I compared the amps i did. If you feel the need to nit pick me just shove your foot in your mouth.

Bud, everything isn't all about you, it just so happens that you come down on people about stuff you have no clue about.

The only reason why I posted on this is because you had to come down and tell someone their equipment was 'bad' when it isn't.

The reason why comparing JL and Pioneer amps is pointless is pretty simple I thought I made it obvious. If he was wanting to spend more than twice what he did on amps, chances are he would have bought something else.

And your right, you didn't mention peak or RMS, but comparing a 600+W RMS amp to a 750W PEAK amp is just asinine. And its not like leaving out PEAK / RMS is nit picking... its a huge point since with it, it becomes clear you are saying that a 600W RMS amp had more power than a 350 or so Watt RMS amp... well duh?

HEHEHAHAHAAHAHAHHHOOHOHOHOH


My threads still going strong....

i dont want another thread for something this simple..


but my work for this weekend... is to patch in my rear speakers to some deck power. Since the speakers are in there, I might as well. I'm gonna tap my Alpine deck right off my 4 gauge amp line, so it gets proper battery voltage. (V-drive or whatever) Then I can fade out and in when i want more fullness, or when i want pure sound quality. I will not use the big 12 gauge speaker wire for those polyglass off deck power.. Thats way more than needed. I'll find some 14 or 16 gauge for that weak wattage. Plus less room wasted by wire.

plac: where u get your optima?

dude... i can hardly remember it was so long ago...

i think it was www.truckperformance.com ??

http://www.truckperformance.com/products/?productID=838358

The one w REVERSE mounts.


just got back from store. used up the rest of my credit.. got a bunch of 0 gauge and 4 gauge ring connectors, and 30 ft of 18 gauge speaker wire. They dind't have 14 or 16 gauge.. i figured for deck power, 18 gauge HAS to be reasonable.

This place sells um and has free shipping...

http://www.batteriesareus.com

Originally posted by placenta
i dont want another thread for something this simple..


but my work for this weekend... is to patch in my rear speakers to some deck power. Since the speakers are in there, I might as well. I'm gonna tap my Alpine deck right off my 4 gauge amp line, so it gets proper battery voltage. (V-drive or whatever) Then I can fade out and in when i want more fullness, or when i want pure sound quality. I will not use the big 12 gauge speaker wire for those polyglass off deck power.. Thats way more than needed. I'll find some 14 or 16 gauge for that weak wattage. Plus less room wasted by wire.

Sounds like a good idea. I have mine faded out most of the time but really like the ability of adding rears when I feel up to it.

How do you intend to cleanly split off power from 4 ga. wire?

i think the red top is the only one that comes in revered top right?

Originally posted by PhatVSpec
i think the red top is the only one that comes in revered top right?

I think so. I couldnt find it in a yellow top.

the reversed one is the orange top I believe
it's just a yellow with reversed posts and a different color top

its technically the "orange" top. But its still red in color. Only the orange top has reversed poles.

tap into my 4 gauge? Well i wouldnt call it "clean".. but i do it this way. I cut a band out of my 4 gauge power under drivers side kick panel. Maybe 1/2 long on wire, so i have an open band of wire. Then I take my 14 gauge think power, and wrap it around that bare loop a few times so its solid. Then I tape that whole open wound up, so not wire is showing anymore. Anyone that says i'm gonna lose head unit voltage by doing that is more anal than me.

Originally posted by placenta
its technically the "orange" top. But its still red in color. Only the orange top has reversed poles.

tap into my 4 gauge? Well i wouldnt call it "clean".. but i do it this way. I cut a band out of my 4 gauge power under drivers side kick panel. Maybe ½ long on wire, so i have an open band of wire. Then I take my 14 gauge think power, and wrap it around that bare loop a few times so its solid. Then I tape that whole open wound up, so not wire is showing anymore. Anyone that says i'm gonna lose head unit voltage by doing that is more anal than me.

why didnt you just run the 14gauge wire to the battery it would have been a lot easier, no? and youre supposed to use 10 gauge wire for v-drive head units, arent you?

depends how large the wire is at the headunit. It is 100% useless if its any smaller than 10 gauge at unit. The wire bandwidth will be as small as its smallest pipe. And im pretty damn sure that the headunit doesnt have a 10 gauge power wire right out of harness.

Originally posted by placenta
depends how large the wire is at the headunit. It is 100% useless if its any smaller than 10 gauge at unit. The wire bandwidth will be as small as its smallest pipe. And im pretty damn sure that the headunit doesnt have a 10 gauge power wire right out of harness.

i dont own a v-drive, but ive always read that you need a 10gauge wire to give enough current to the v-drive amplifier...

its simple physics.. your system is always as stong as your weakest link. your power wire does nothing extra after you go bigger than its stock size. its gonna be a bottle neck at the deck that way.


im gonna read up on it just for fun..

Originally posted by placenta
its simple physics.. your system is always as stong as your weakest link. your power wire does nothing extra after you go bigger than its stock size. its gonna be a bottle neck at the deck that way.

im not disputing that at all, because it is true, even though the current flow will be greater through thinner wire... im just saying, they must reccomend the 10gauge for a reason, i doubt they'd just make up a number and say "use this gauge wire"

CRUTCHFIELD recommends it. and not surprising, theyre in business to make money. We both know it doesnt matter if this huge flow of current makes it to 6" from the deck.. If it has a 14 or 16 gauge pipe into the last 6 inches, that current is useless.

I'm trying to find some Alpine direct statements discussing this.

Doesn't distance come into play on the whole amount of current a set gauge of wire is capable of carrying? :)

Originally posted by DevlynSyde
Doesn't distance come into play on the whole amount of current a set gauge of wire is capable of carrying? :)

yeah
wire is not like a pipe, the same amount of current will always flow, the difference in the size of wire is the voltage drop this current flow will cause. It is completely based on the size and length of the wire. Based on your comments Plac, power wire any larger than 16ga would be pointless because the fuse would be the bottleneck, and the metal part of the fuse itself is only the size of ~16ga wire.

jesus.. i fully screwed that one... aw well...

i posted about my heater controls in the general forum.. it didnt work out.. now im gonna run that wire from my 4 gauge over to my deck.. and do my rear speakers.. might as well do everything while i have the car in pieces.